How did you start doing design and how long have you been doing it? How would you describe your place and mission in the design world now?
I transitioned into design from drawing. I used to attend art school, and when it was time to finish I realised I was missing one skill. One that would allow me to present my ideas not just on paper but digitally. The things I drew weren’t getting many reactions on Instagram, and people weren’t grasping the concept.
So, I needed to learn software. I thought, what do I need for this. Most likely, I should get into design. My thinking was very practical. My drawing skill wasn’t going anywhere, it would always stay with me. But what I lacked I would be able to develop.
Four years ago I enrolled in design at HSE (Higher School of Economics). As I studied, I realised I wanted to do this more and more. In the middle of my studies, when everyone started working, a healthy sense of competition emerged in the group, which constantly made me want to grow. I began to wonder why I wasn’t working and so I started taking on small projects for friends, just like everyone else in the group was doing.
Can you recall the first project or job that gave you the feeling of euphoria or, perhaps, the opposite feeling?
I had a very funny progression. At first, I absolutely loved my university projects, I was thrilled with every result. But the work commissions brought me suffering and dissatisfaction.
In my third year, when I started working at ESH, everything turned upside down. I thought, ‘Wow, what an amazing process, how well-organised everything is.’ I began to enjoy even the basic tasks like when I had to illustrate for stickers, for example. University projects started giving me the feeling that they would soon be over, that I didn’t need them at all because I had already found fulfillment elsewhere.
What gave you the feeling that work is bigger, that it brings more meaning and satisfaction?
At school you’re your own boss, you set your own standards and criteria, but at some point you can tire yourself and burn out. And the work project has clear criteria set by the client and instructions from art directors. You are more satisfied with having a clear unchanging task, and there’s no exhaustion from your own internal demands.
How do you manage your relationship with the validation process? How would you describe its dynamics?
This year, I’ve had a lot of insights about it. I think I’ve become less dependent on external validation compared to when I started. I was working on my thesis which was the biggest and longest part of my media project about music. I had a lot of doubts, and at the same time everyone around me had so much faith in me. It’s strange when everyone validates you, but you don’t believe in yourself and can’t move forward.
There were breakthrough moments when I had a tangible result. Like when I printed T-shirts or made merch. Then all the positive feedback from people started to make sense. But when someone critiques a piece you were super confident in, you start doubting whether it was actually good.
The more this happens, the more you learn to take it in stride. Without reacting too much, just keep moving toward the goal.
Over the last four years, I’ve noticed a big shift in how I handle criticism, even the feedback from my supervisor who has been commenting on my work at that time. Usually he would give specific comments, and you could choose what to change or leave as is. You might completely disregard it or work hard to change things as proposed. There was one comment I struggled with for two months. I just couldn’t figure out how to solve the problem and I hit a wall. Then I asked myself, ‘Why am I so dependent on this? I need to do what I understand, this is my project, and I have to make decisions to finish it.’ So, I didn’t change anything.
Have you experienced toxic criticism?
I guess all designers have gone through it in one way or another. When you’re fresh and energetic, diving into the freelance world, you face things that can be traumatising because you’re not prepared to defend your work and aren’t confident in what you’re doing.
I’ve experienced it when people said things like, ‘Why are you sending me this crap? I could do better in Word.’ Over time you realise that the person is wrong, and there’s no need to get upset about it. You can only look at the criticism condescendingly and learn to discuss what can actually be changed because every work process involves some discussion.
It seems like this only happens when you’re just starting out, but even after a few years, you still encounter people like that. People who expect you to guess their idea without any explanation. ‘Bring me something within this range, but I won’t tell you exactly what because you’re free to come up with it yourself.
What’s the way to prevent toxic criticism?
These situations happen less often in team work. This is an incredible relief for me, it speeds up and streamlines the process making it less toxic.
Why?
Because of good organisation. In ESH Group everything is documented, from tasks to feedback. You are treated with respect and kindness and your opinion is always taken into account. Plus, the art director or project manager will always defend our collective work in front of the client. That reinforces a sense of team spirit and you’re inspired knowing you have like-minded people in the work you love.
Tell us, what additional skills do you have? Something that compliments you as a professional?
I’ve started seeing myself a lot more as an illustrator, especially after Stef and Veta suggested I draw a sticker pack with the faces of the entire team. After that I realised I want to keep drawing all the time, and I want to incorporate that into my projects! I openly said that I could be used for such tasks.
I also create playlists for projects. We have a project called Esh Playlists with the team. Music is another thing that inspires and characterises me.
Have you had professional situations where you asked yourself, ‘What am I doing? What a disaster!’
At ESH, I haven’t had any projects that made me feel ashamed. On freelance surely, and it mostly happened when the client didn’t know what they wanted. There were disagreements within their team, and you suffer because of that. When you’re your own designer, manager and accountant, it’s hard to protect yourself.
Now I understand the logic of the process. You get additional changes, you demand to be compensated. Before, I would just do the work and burn out afterward. That experience taught me you need to factor into your project fee a ‘suffering contingency’, and maybe money for a psychologist. Even better, try to understand what the project can bring you and whether you’re ready for it. It’s also important to draw up a contract that clearly outlines the duration and terms of your collaboration. I think that’s the most professional way to resolve any disputes.
Do you have any advice on how to act when communication hits a dead end?
I’m learning by watching how my colleagues at ESH handle it by asking a bunch of clarifying questions that require specific answers. From that questionnaire, you can figure out what the client likes or dislikes. Thus unnecessary emotions fade away. Often you just don’t know how to complete a task because of a lack of information.
Have you ever had to abruptly halt a project or exit it urgently?
Yes, there was one freelance project like that. It involved both a client and an art director who hired me. The client didn’t have a deadline for a decision and took a long time to make up their mind. And the timing was on the art director. I expected to complete the project in a month, but it ended up taking two months. There was no contract which was also a mistake. I thought since we had done projects together before, this one would go well too. In the end, I was doing the work, running out of my last fuel, trying to leave. Then even six months later they were still sending me comments like, ‘We need to make changes here.’
Do you now know how to protect yourself from situations like that?
Yes. Before starting a project, you need to have a call with both the client and the customer to assess their level of communication and learn about their expectations. If you notice your eye starts twitching on certain phrases, you need to think twice. It often happens that you haven’t done anything yet, but you already sense something off with the person on a non-verbal level. That ends up being the problem later.
Are there any clear signals you recognise in such first meetings that indicate, ‘We shouldn’t go there’?
I’m very interested and concerned about dealing with narcissistic people. Often, clients will praise you like crazy, you get euphoric, you deliver a solution, and they say: ‘Guess what I want,’ without any direction. You try, and every time it’s a fail, fail, fail. You start thinking you’re a bad designer. I’m not very good at identifying such people in the first meeting, and managing them requires a lot of energy. If I sense it happening, I just leave the project or try to involve a communication mediator when possible.
Are there other aspects of work that stress you out? What annoys you the most?
I don’t like it when someone can’t express their thoughts concisely. I’m that way myself. I started disliking it when I began noticing the lack of clarity in others’ communication. For instance, a call lasting more than an hour gives me a serious headache because I focus too much and then get overwhelmed.
Unstructured thoughts always stressed me out, even with teachers at school who would go off on tangents, losing the thread. It makes me uncomfortable when it disappears and I need to go over all the content again to try and recreate the causality myself. Eventually I realised you can plan ahead for what you’re going to say, even for a presentation, and cut down on distractions.
From what I see, you’re now taking on more leadership tasks in the team. What do you enjoy about that process?
Yes, since the beginning of the year I’ve been doing senior designer tasks in ESH and I really enjoy it. I’ve realised that distributing tasks within the team is a great way to get to know someone on a personal level. You explain to them the way you’d want things explained to you. And in the process of assigning tasks, you also gain a better understanding of what we are doing.
In essence, writing a task for others is like writing it for yourself, but dividing it between two or three people. It’s incredibly rewarding because in the process I figure out that I want more from myself than I can actually deliver. But if there are specific requirements and deadlines, you don’t raise the bar too high along the way.
You mentioned your tendency to switch between tasks, and I understand it sometimes gets in your way at work. Is it not so bad or do you consider it more of a superpower?
I’m both diligent and restless, those are the two extremes in me. I can sit and take a long time to start working. Often, you have to set your own plan of action, be your own project manager, and then dive into the work.
I can go into deep work for an hour or longer because I need to focus. I’ve had issues with that. I burned out harshly this year and felt I wasn’t taking breaks at least once an hour and could work for two hours straight.
Productivity drops, by the end of the day you feel like you’re going insane, collapsing onto the couch like a vegetable. I used to feel that if I took a break, I wouldn’t be able to focus on the task again and wouldn’t complete it.
Besides, when I get deeply involved, I start to enjoy the process of finding a solution that works. And then I’m afraid that focus will slip away, and I’ll have to concentrate all over again. In moments like that it’s important to ask yourself why are you doing this right now. Who are you trying to prove something to? Such questions help bring you back into the tangible world, feel your feet on the ground and your back against the chair.
At the same time, I see the benefits of such focus. I can manage multiple projects simultaneously, which boosts my sense of productivity. And during these hyper-focus periods, I can complete a large chunk of work without procrastination.
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This interview is part of the documentary project Insights about the people of the ESH design studio. The interview was conducted by Polina Drozhkova.
More information about the project can be found on the website insights.eshgruppa.com.
